She is a young Orthodox woman who was raised as “shomer” - that is shomer negiah, committed to avoiding any kind of sexual contact until marriage.
But one Saturday night she ended up lying on a bed with her boyfriend, hugging and kissing.
Having “slipped” in her own estimation, she now wanted to restore some physical boundaries until they got engaged but wondered where she should draw the line.
It is one of the issues that was recently discussed by Orthodox rabbi Scott Kahn and certified sex therapist Talli Rosenbaum on Intimate Judaism, a pioneering monthly podcast broadcast in English.The two co-hosts will be coming to the UK from Israel in a few days to run a number of sessions at the Limmud Festival.
While sex, just as any other area of life, is regulated by Jewish law, traditionally it has not been a subject openly talked about within the Orthodox world. Some Chasidic groups are so protective of their children that schools will skip over sexual episodes in the Bible (only the week before last, both masturbation and prostitution cropped up in the Torah portion).
“The norm of tzniut [modesty] is a very important one in Jewish thinking,” Rabbi Kahn says. “Certainly there are elements of what we talk about that should, and would be kept private.” According to the Talmud, “there are certain things you don’t speak about in public.”
But situations that may affect couples — when partners differ in their desires or strength of sex drive, for example — are something they will tackle on air. “Unfortunately, by keeping it private, people are afraid to find out what is allowed and what it isn’t allowed, what they should do in certain situations where they are troubled and what they shouldn’t do,” Rabbi Kahn says.
“Because of that people have pain in their marriages. People discover serious issues and cracks in their relationships, thinking there is no one to whom they can turn.”
Having studied in a number of Israeli yeshivot, Rabbi Kahn made aliyah from North America some 28 years ago. The father of seven, who lives in Ramat Bat Shemesh, set up a yeshivah which he ran jointly for a number of years but when that closed, he branched into the world of new media, launching the podcast network Jewish Coffee House.
Intimate Judaism started off four years ago as a spin-off of another podcast he co-hosts, Orthodox Conundrum, a more wide-ranging forum. “I had an episode with Tali and she was a guest on the show and it was such a popular episode that people said we should turn it into a regular series.”
Each episode begins with a warning that it contains “explicit” content - though explicit by the standards of Orthodox Jewish discourse rather than Channel 4 explicit.
“There are some things both in terms of Jewish law and practical necessity that must be talked about so that people realise there is an address to which they can turn,” he says. “The number of people who have reached out to us and said they never knew that there was any discussion about an issue that was causing them pain has been incredible. People have said to us I never knew I could ask my rabbi this question.”
The “bullseye” of Intimate Judaism’s target audience is the English-speaking Orthodox world, he says. But “we see from correspondence people who have written from the Charedi world and also people who are not Orthodox, and perhaps not even Jewish, who find what we are saying is helpful - and even necessary in order for them to strengthen their marriages, their relationships.”
He is at pains to point out that Orthodoxy is not monolithic - there may be differences between a machmir (stringent) and makil (lenient) interpretation of Jewish law. His role is not necessarily to favour one over the other but to make clear that options exist.
But he believes it’s “healthier for the Jewish community as a whole perhaps… get away from this idea either you are in or you are out, either you are shomer Shabbat and you keep all the mitzvot or you may as well not keep any of them.” The all or nothing attitude can still be something a lot of people have.
While Rosenbaum, who is the co-author of a book, I Am for My Beloved: A Guide to Enhanced Intimacy for Married Couples, identifies with Orthodoxy too, they offer differing perspectives.
His role is to explain how Jewish law and thought views an issue, while she will adopt a more therapeutic and psychological approach.
“It is important to know Talli and I don’t always agree,” he says. “Sometimes we’ll be on the podcast and she’ll say one thing and I’ll say something else. We don’t always have to come to a meeting of the minds. I’ll say Jewish law says this - and she’ll say in the therapeutic community, they think somewhat different.”
The podcast can be heard at intimatejudaism.com
The Limmud Festival begins in Birmingham on December 22. The programme can be viewed at limmud.org/festival/
